In astonishing step that reflects the ruthless nature of the Egyptian regime; the Military ruler of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak, ordered Khayrat el Shater, Second Deputy Chairman of the Muslim Brotherhood, and a number of its leaders to be tried by a military tribunal!
It is a sad day for freedom and human rights when patriotic civilians who did not commit any crimes are being tried in a military tribunal only because of their political views and for daring to oppose a corrupt government.
It is time now for President Bush to decide either to go with freedom and democracy as a principle claimed by his administration and lectured to the egyptians by Mrs. Rice, his Secretary of state, or to continue supporting despotic regimes by turning a blind eye to their oppressive actions. In either case the consequences are expected to go beyond Egypt leaving ample room for all extremists to reinforce their claims against democratic reformers who renounce violence like MB.
They’ve been reading the Washington Post too much. Also checked the Arabic site, no similar argument that I can see. (And by the way, when will people stop reporting that the Ikhwan sites have been shut down? It’s just not true.)
More seriously, MEMRI / FrontPageMag (my Ziotrolls’ favorite publication, as we’ve established) has a media analysis of the regime vs. the ikhwan that’s actually fairly thorough in covering the mainstream media debate, albeit with the usual slant. And this Jerusalem Post writer really, really cares about Egypt:
Egypt’s security is Israel’s security.
If the Brotherhood does come to power, it might spell disaster for all progressive-minded Egyptians, for Egypt’s allies, and for Israel. In spite of the regrettable but inevitable restrictions on human rights that Mubarak’s crackdown entails, perhaps the West would be wise to let the Egyptian rais do what is necessary, without undue criticism.
The article is titled “Long live Egypt’s ‘rais’.” Nice to see Israelis care so much about “progressive-minded Egyptians.”
Back to the issue of the MB: if Khairat al-Shatir (#3 of the group, alleged key financier) and his pals are sent to a military court, they are going to be convicted. Military courts don’t find people not guilty. And we already know from past experience that putting mid-level and senior cadres in jail might be a setback, it won’t shut down the organization, which has plenty of able and willing people who can step in.
MB is one of the biggest dangers to Egypt!! If those jerkoffs ever come to power…a mass migration from Egypt will occur, and we will lose foreign investment and simple freedoms that we are barely hanging onto now.
Does the MB not realize that many of us Egyptians (muslims/christians) live in absolute fear of them coming to power!
There is no place in the modern world for idiots ilike the MB!, HAMAS, HIZBOLLA or any of those Religiousley based parties.
Yes! Let’s quickly execute them all, so we can all enjoy a liberal and free lifestyle!!
No room for religiously-based parties of course!! Just room for the various secular dictatorships/democracies that have perpetrated most of the past century’s slaughter and bloodshed!!
Hi, I fear the Brotherhood’s kung fu student militias more than I fear being beaten up by cops for talking back to an officer!!
Hi, I have my priorities straight, and I like exclamation marks!!!
GREAT! I hope all the MB is imprisioned, killed, or sodomised with a stick so that the disease that is called sectarianism is finally destroyed in EGYPT.
LONG LIVE a FREE AND SECULAR EGYPT.
Sometimes in this country it’s hard to know who’s more stupid and intolerant, the Copts or the Muslims. You Egyptians really outdo yourself. I’m with Cosmic on this one.
Hi, I think I know what I am talking about because I get second hand information from ME blogs.
Rania, considering your obvious respect for the information found in blogs, I’m not sure why you participate in this one. So what is the truth?
But further the actual posting, according to today’s Ahram, State Security investigations reveal that the Brotherhood people have been in touch with current and former members of the US congress as well as British leaders, for purposes of passing them information to be used to put pressure on the regime.
I seriously doubt that the MB has contacts with various world governments, and even if they did they would it would be low level officials who have no power.
Are we going to be al-Ahram a news paper that touts the government line, which last week reported that the Iranian government killed Egypt’s ambassador in Iraq?
On the subject of the Muslim Brotherhood—I might have taken a extremely sarcastic tone against them—but as an Egyptian I have full right to voice my opposition against their threat. Life might not be perfect with Mubarak ruling, but who can say if these Islamists were to come to power that they would espouse democracy and allow other liberal parties to continue.
The Muslim Brotherhood is a threat and I am very tired of outsiders, Westerners claiming that the Brotherhood is the savior of Egypt and that they are its hope. There is a silent majority against the status-quo and the only true support the Muslim Brotherhood can garner is that against the regime, not due to its popularity or policies.
I encourage more and more Egyptians to speak out and let the disease of sectarianism and the widening gulf between Coptic and Muslim heal. We must rebuild this nation not tear it down with religious rhetoric and empty promises.
FUCK the Muslim Brotherhood.
partly for entertainment factor and partly to show the light to westerners and people like cosmic who read english language arab blogs thinking that they must be giving the truth because they are written by arabs or westerners living in the ME.
The truth? a precious commodity around here. Modern Pharaoh has the right jist
I dig Kopticjihad when he says he has the right to voice his opposition to the MB and when he calls for healing the disease of sectarianism.
So what’s with the name, Kopticjihad?
And how would you react if as many Copts were being arrested and thrown before military trials simply for being Copts as Brothers are now?
It would be nice to see you, as a Copt, “speak out and let the disease of sectarianism and the widening gulf between Coptic and Muslim heal” by speaking out against the crackdown on the Brotherhood.
A little scripture for the koptic jihady in you:
1Peter 2:17 – Honor all people. Love the Brotherhood. Fear God.
“And how would you react if as many Copts were being arrested and thrown before military trials simply for being Copts as Brothers are now? “
what?! that;s because copts haven’t committed any terrorist acts whereas the MB have.
One of the MB’s aims is ethnic cleansing of copts, bahais and all other kafara folk. Look to the 90s when the MB were a force to be reckoned with and how many pharmacists and jewellery shop owners (known to be favoured christian trades) were shot dead in their workplaces. I know of two family friends who died at the hands of the MB that way. We haven’t even touched on the churches that were torched etc etc. The NDP is keeping them in check which is why every christian would vote NDP every day of the week.
The driving force of violence and intolerance is the MB. It is therefore quite insulting to all minority groups when westerners who know precious little defend them. It would be like me defending the Front National, BNP or KKK.
ps coptic jihad is to love those who hate you
The attacks against Christians in the 1990s were carried out by the Gamaa Islamiya mostly, and not the MB. I agree that the MB have an ambiguous policy towards Copts and missed a great opportunity last year when they said they would clarify it and come out with a new consolidated position paper (rather than referring people back to their old sayings, some of which are not very nice). But they do not advocate killing them, have said they are for equal rights several times (albeit with ambiguity on political participation issues and jizya), and some prominent MB have been engaging in a dialogue with prominent secular (non-church) Copts such as Youssef Sidhoum for years.
I understand, and partly share, your anxiety about the MB. But you have to get the facts right.
The NDP-regime hasn’t been much better on the rights of religious minorities (remember the recent case in which the courts denied Bahais the right to list their religion on their national IDs?), the regime has happily censored books deemed offensive to religion, and in general hasn’t shown itself to be so much more liberal on religion than the Brothers, and yet it gets away with posturing as the last hope before the Islamist takeover. Clearly conservative and even intolerant values concerning religious pluralism aren’t the sole preserve of the MB, though they form a convenient lightning rod for concerns about intolerance.
The MB put out a platform for a political party a month or so ago, and IIRC it allowed for the membership of Copts in the proposed party. It could be pure PR, of course, but it’s something.
This attitude of “let’s screw the Brothers before they even think about screwing us” is an excellent way to perpetuate the brutal, intolerant, confrontational political culture in Egypt. It would be nice if the supporters of secular democracy here would bother to put their values into practice so that we can all continue to support them.
Gamma’a islamiya and MB are the same people! No you say, the MB are the non violent arm. That’s why their members dress as terrorists and hold militia demonstrations. They are the same people albeit more intelligent and with a great plan. Denounce violence on paper to try and get government acceptance and garner political support as the alternative to violent groups. Then when proliferation is complete, execute violence on all the kafara. genius. The al azhar demonstration showed us a peep of what is going on behind the curtain.
Papers and dialogue may be good newspaper and poltical journal fodder but this is not translating to better treatment of the people on the ground because it’s all just a front.
the big difference between the MB and NDP is that the NDP isn’t trying to kill off minority groups!
I do not advocate ‘screwing’ or violence against MB members.
Ummm. Rania. I’m Egyptian, have lived here all my life, and have dealt with pretty much all parts of the Egyptian political spectrum.
Jumped the gun a little? But thanks for showing me the light there!
I’ve read about the so-called transformation of the Brotherhood by el-Ghobashy, and I find that it is complete and utter trash. It’s true that they have denounced violence and have espoused more tolerant polices towards women and minorities.
We should take these news reports with a grain of salt. Last year’s interview with Rose al-Youssef al-Mahdi Akkef answered a question of citizenship and leadership that surprised many Egyptians. His answer to the question of whether his party would support a Malaysian Muslim over atheists or Copts is another form of doublespeak. Egyptian citizenship does not mean a thing to the Brotherhood, their only measure of loyalty to the State (i.e. Umma) is religion.
The Brotherhood is a farce, complete and utter farce. One moment they speak against the regime, America and its allies in the region the next they beg for mercy and support from them.
We all know that the Egyptian government plays electoral games and other sort of manipulations to control Egypt. Is it possible that the regime is using the Brotherhood, the Coptic Pope, Shiekh Tantawi, and even religion to ‘preoccupy’ their citizens with sectarianism, the Israeli/Palestinian issue, now the Shiite/Sunni divide?
I am speaking as a Coptic-Atheist, I do not believe in God and view the Coptic pope with disdain for his collaboration with the regime—But can we imagine life under the Brotherhood for Bahaiis, Copts and even moderate Muslims? This organization that has no clear policies regarding these groups, uses religion to silence its enemies, and doublespeaks.
We need to break out of the government’s braincontrol and think for ourselves. Israel is not the enemy, Copts and Muslims are one people, who cares about whether you are Shiite/Sunni.
Oh, just now saw Rania’s enlightening comments on the Gamaa and the MB being the same people. What a scream!
The truth is a precious commodity indeed.
I had relatives killed by Copts in Iraq! That’s because Christian Americans and Egyptian copts are the same thing, right? Or were the Egyptian copts the non-violent arm of the Christian Brotherhood? I’m so confused!
thats a faulty argument, humans are humans everywhere.
Please read carefully my previous post, I said in plain english that they are non-violent but I go against their precieved tolerance.
I’m just so tired of people touting the Brotherhood when in fact theres not much there to be giddy about..
“Denounce violence on paper to try and get government acceptance and garner political support as the alternative to violent groups. Then when proliferation is complete, execute violence on all the kafara. genius.”
You could replace the word “kafara” here with “opponents,” and “government acceptance” with “international acceptance,” and you’d be talking about the Egyptian regime. The NDP isn’t trying to kill off minority groups, it’s just trying to brutalise anyone who opposes it – ecumenically.
Who really knows what the MB would be like if they were in power, I wouldn’t vote for them, but we do know how the current regime has treated people, and they’ve given everyone more concrete cause for scepticism about respect for individual rights than anyone else has. Criticism of the Brothers is well and good till it’s paired with ridiculous and patently false statements about ethnic cleansing and the higher moral ground of the current regime, and then it just sounds cynical.
Iraq isn’t example enough to go by or iran.
It’s either the NDP or be like them. That is the only choice most ME countries have. Not one has a real democracy or will have any time soon. argue all you want
This is becoming tiresome.
But I can’t resist this howler: “Any Copt would vote NDP any day of the week?”
Without even trying, I can think of about 12 Coptic friends who would forcefully disagree. And that’s just from the small group of people I know. Would George Ishaq vote NDP? Amin Iskandr? Dr. Hana Girgis? Speak for yourself.
Why is it the anglo-saxons abroad who DON’T live in Egypt are so ecstatic about the Muslim Brotherhood? They have no say in Egyptian politics, they can’t vote but yet they see the NDP’s brutality and corruption and can’t stand that.
Would you vote for the KKK if they became a reformed party allowing African Americans to join their ranks? I’m sure Africans in Americans would be giddy about this anouncement. They can’t even stand having Confederate flags around on public buildings or college campuses.
You all are becoming ‘tiresome’ and somewhat arrogant—-get an education about the Middle East. I’d rather vote for the known evil than for one I don’t.
1) I am not Anglo-Saxon, and I live in Egypt. Others here have spent years in Egypt studying and being intimately acquainted with its political scene. Address the substance, and skip the cheap shots about people’s backgrounds, which you know nothing about.
2) I certainly wouldn’t vote for the KKK, but I wouldn’t want them banned, tortured and jailed either. There is such a thing as standing up for people’s rights, despite attempts to smear those who do as sympathisers of unpleasant causes.
3) There are large numbers of Egyptians who don’t like the brutality and corruption of the NDP and prefer to vote for the lesser-known evil, given the chance. You are entitled to have your preference, but not to deny them theirs.
alright! nothing like an ad hominen attack to spice up what had been turning into a boring debate.
For the record,
a) Like SP, I also am not an Anglo-Saxon. Tim Seah is a little joke derived from ØªÙ…Ø³Ø§Ø get it? haha.
b) I do live in Egypt. According to your IP address, you do not. You are in the United States.
d) I’m not ecstatic about the Brotherhood. I believe that rights extend beyond those whose opinions I share. I believe the Egyptian people should be able to choose the politicians who best represent them, and I don’t believe that most people here would choose the Brotherhood given the unlikely possibility of free elections.
You have made a very good point out there. I sympathesise with El-Shater, though i find the MB propositions and ideolgies naive and symptomatic of a culture that has beengoing down for centuries. Non the less i was provoked, when you invoked the Americans in the Issue. As an Egyptian Arab man, i would rather be ruled by Lucifer than to witness foreigners putting pressure on the government of the Arab republic of Egypt
@ Rania i think Iraq in the eighties was the salvation of the entire Arab world! That was indeed, an example!
I too believe in the rights of man, freedom of expression and all that jazz, but I will stand against parties based on religion.
The MB should not always be protrayed as a victim they too intimidate and influence Egypt’s poor just like the regime. The intimidation is very present in the streets of Shubra, (a district where a large percentage is Coptic, yet their representative is from the Muslim Brotherhood). As you walk around you may notice their spray painted slogan (“Islam is the solution.”)across the walls of random apartment buildings. How does a father who is Coptic, Jewish, Atheist etc explain that to his child, when asked?
Imagine how would you feel when you are stopped by a bearded man telling you to make your aunt and cousin to wear the higab?
This isn’t just impacting the Coptic community but Moderate Muslims afraid to speak out against the radicals.
With the polarization continuing in Egypt, many Egyptians will vote with their feet and emigrate to lands where religious conservatism isn’t a tool of braincontrol and liberal ideas are protected by a government governed by the ideals of checks and balances.
read the federalist papers, where james madison talks about how to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.
“Others here have spent years in Egypt studying and being intimately acquainted with its political scene.” they may have a vast knowledge but no wisdom. I’m sure they have political advisors aplenty for managing the iraq situation yet they are failing dismally. Yet us politically ignorant folk knew that this would be the end result before the start of the war.
“I don’t believe that most people here would choose the Brotherhood” puhlease…. MB are the party of God remember- to not vote for them is seen as being unmuslim and with the current apparent increased religiosity that’s not a preferable position in which to be. Perhaps the cilantro frequenting, AUC educated bunch of people you hang around with don’t but that’s the minority. been to assiut, el menia, port said lately or just try imbaba.
This isn’t republic vs democrat american style. It’s not just another party with different views.
@amre, who’s talking about iraq in teh 80s? nerakez ya baba
So look at iraq, they got rid off their dictator and stopped him doing the killing so they could do it themselves. I think that the 3000/month death rate in iraq at the moment is probably higher than the death rate when saddam was around. Go freedom! Go democracy!
Okay, iran….they voted for the party with the slightly different views and now it’s a freakin hell hole. yay, let’s do the same to egypt because everyone should have the freedom to be elected into government no matter what they want to do.
cosmic-pleasure, anytime friend.
temsah sweetie- i m part of a whole christian community of various backgrounds and denominations and i know what we think. It might not be in print or in surveys but it’s true!
to one and all- please don’t leave common sense out.
this has been an interesting foray into politics (and to think i was just looking for an ME news service!) but next time i need to raise my blood pressure i’ll try coffee. anyway, thanks for inadvertently (?) keeping me company while i finish my work.
Rania and Kopticjihad, your responses suggest you have little faith in either democracy or in the good sense and judgement of Egyptians.
“As you walk around you may notice their spray painted slogan (â€�Islam is the solution.â€�)across the walls of random apartment buildings. How does a father who is Coptic, Jewish, Atheist etc explain that to his child, when asked? “
Well, as someone who grew up with angry nativist and religious slogans and posters on walls everywhere, let me tell you that, surprise surprise, a parent can tell a child “those people are wrong and misguided.” In November 2005 I saw (and took a photo of) grafitti that someone had written over one of those “al-Islam huwa al-hall” posters, which said “al-irhab huwa al-hall, la, al-sex huwa al hall!” So much for the meek Egyptian Muslim.
Imagine that, we have the capacity to think for ourselves, and reject or make fun of ideas we disagree with. When evangelicals in the US Congress say equivalent things about America being a Christian nation and it’s their responsibility to Bring America Back to Jesus Christ, people don’t run to cover their children’s ears. Have a little bit of confidence in your fellow beings, these sorts of ideas have always been around and in places where they are submitted to free debate and democracy, they’ve usually been kept in check.
I doubt anyone here likes parties based on religion. It’s just easier to counter them if you stop giving them reason to look like martyrs, and if you let them get bogged down in the dirty work of actually governing.
Rania, your attempt to connect researchers here to the Iraq war is really grasping at (nonexistent) straws. As for this: “MB are the party of God remember- to not vote for them is seen as being unmuslim and with the current apparent increased religiosity that’s not a preferable position in which to be.” If that were the case, every Muslim would have joined the MB by now. They haven’t. There are many other ways to live one’s religion. The regime argues strongly that its official version of Islam and its ulama have it right and the Islamists are misguided. There are more quietist Islamic charities that don’t want to get into politics. I think you’ve pretty much bought the MB line about representing the true Islam if you think that every Muslim will feel obliged to vote for them.
Rania sadasm was killing nobody, the halbja attacks was totally justified “ya ama” it was self defence the Kurdish gangs were collaborating with the enemy(well documented in western sources) Iraq was going into a brutal survival war against horrible enemy on behalf of the entire Arab world. Iraq emerged victorius and the tremndous iraqi progress was tilting the strategic balance in middle east for the first time since 1967 in favour of the Arabs. According to U.N human development indexes, it was expected to reach technological and living standards close to western European ones. It clear to me that there is a structural problem with the Arab mind. Arabs can no longer think fo themselves. They just parrot meaningless democracy rhetoric in contexts totally different from those in which the western democratic IDEOLOGY had emerged…………….
sectarianism is a disease, a phenomoen that we are witnessing all across the Middle East. If and when the MB does come to power and starts instituting their will upon all Egyptians…I would not be surprised if some Copts participate in terrorists attacks.